Paladins and SK's are by far the best Group tanks in Classic EQ because of our ability to keep agro. If you are playing a paladin to be a caster...why not just play a cleric?

I aim to main tank. I could less what a warrior is capable of, I'm not a warrior, I'm a paladin.

My next question is if I focus mainly on small group content (I just won't have time to multi-hour raids like I did back in college) how easy/hard will it be to max stats using gear? This might affect my STR/STA ratio to start; I hate to stack STR only to find it is easy as hell to max it out at end game and feel like I wasted those points. Then again if I know for a fact I probably won't be maxing the stat without tons of raids I might spend all my points on it to start to avoid encumbrance and gain a little attack rating.

Pre-expansion, you probably aren't going to max any of your stats.

By the time Velious rolls around, strength is a much easier stat to raise through gear and buffs than stamina. This is why stamina eventually became the predominant 'dump stat' for tanks at creation. Note, however, that you have to get TO that point, which would not be a particularly fun journey starting out with ~90 strength. You have to make a comprimise between initial playability and end-game stat balance.

If you intend to MT, I hope you expect to stick to group content where the Paladin does fine. Don't plan on MT'ing many raids, especially once the expansions hit. There are a few individual fights where the Paladin is preferred, and a few more where you can make it work, but in general most raids are going to want Warriors (due to higher CH efficiency from more health plus /disc defensive). Hindsight being what it is, go into it with that knowledge. In group content, on the other hand, Paladins perform adequately and are even preferred much of the time.

Danth

I'm mainly a group content player. I raid on occassion, but it isn't my favorite part of the game. Usually I go on raids if there is a specific item I want to get and I just run it until I win it.

I suppose, however, that dumping all points in STR to start would free me up from having to get a single +STR item end game and allow me to get a different item with +HP or +STA on it instead and I'd make the hitpoints back that way anyway.

In raids I fully expected to be the off tank for the adds or something.

I'll be making a Half Elf Paladin that starts in (or around) Kelethin and then immediately head over to Freeport, should the boats be working, and bind in my favorite city.

In any event starting stats are VERY important for the first twenty or so levels and even more so for Paladins. My stat spread for my Half Elf Paladin will be allocating +11 to STA to a total of 86 wich should bump me up to exactly 28hp upon creation. The remaining points will be put either exclusively to WIS [or] +4 to STR and +5 to WIS.

The most common stat in the game, by far, is STR so placing the starting points towards STR may not be a very good idea. Do keep in mind Paladins have the Yaulp and Wreckless Strength line of spells and can easily pick up a buff from your group or a passing by caster. WISDOM is much harder come by and may be a better choice to invest in upon creating your character.

That's my 2 cp.

Those two spells had occurred to me, but I don't want to have to stop every 18 seconds to recast the str buff to stay out of encumbrance. And as I said, in the end having that extra str may open up a slot a for a different item later on that most paladins don't go for simply because they want to max that str. Maybe a wis item or something that others don't usually wear.

All I know is that I want a guarantee of never being encumbered while alone or in a group. To do that I'm going to need 100 str minimum I think (as plate armor and 2handers are heavy). If a started 100/105 and had str items as well then that's all the more loot I can carry back to town to sell too. Eh, we'll see when the server opens up. Originally I was going to go all stamina with str items in mind, but since I was a monk before I had no idea what the total weight of a full suit of armor would be (which sounds like just armor + weapon is pushing 90 weight right there). Or I may go 10 str 10 sta and just be more well-rounded. I don't think mana will be an issue, 80 wisdom sounds fine for the amount of casting I envision doing in group fights (and I will be mainly a group content guy, I haven't the time or patience for raiding anymore).

It is a shame Barbarians cannot be paladins, I mean aren't they the creation of Mithaniel Marr and all? Why can't they do the Paladin thing?

I could just roll up a dwarf, but I don't like the way the Soulfire looks in their hands, it looks better on tall races.

Barbarians aren't the most refined race on Norrath...

Besides, they'd be soul-crushingly powerful, and that's no fun. :p

I don't want to get you down but I think you're going to find life at high levels very difficult if you don't raid enough to get some decent equipment. Paladins are very dependant on their equipment and the stuff you can get outside of raids up to Velious is almost laughable as I recall. Not just for stat bonuses but for AC.

Especially getting a good breastplate and leggings. It may just be my memory failing me but I can't think of any good breastplate and leggings you can get without doing any raiding in the Velious era.

And if your AC sucks you're not going to be a very good tank even for regular grouping. Maybe after this game has been running for a long time people who do raid will start selling some good equipment but I'm afraid it will probably be a while because that stuff won't start showing up in /auction untill all the twinks have been twinked and the server is starting to die anyway.

This is why I won't even consider playing a melee or hybrid class. They are all too dependant on equipment and like you I am simply not going to go through all that raiding stuff again. I didn't even like it the first time around.

I enjoy the idea of a raid. But only when it doesn't take 15 hours straight through. No person with a career and other responsibilities in real life has 15 hours to commit (at least I can't figure out how they'd do that) to a raid. However, since most everyone here is a veteran perhaps the players will really work well together and be able to clear out a plane in just 4 or 5 hours. That I can handle maybe once every two weeks or so (no different than watching a long movie or something).

That being said, it took me 4 years to reach level 51 the first time because I play casually and like to spend time playing alts and just exploring or doing quests, and I usually break from the game for a month or two at a time to recharge so this raid gear dependence won't be much of an issue for me for a while as I probably will level even slower this time around.

I played full on from 99 to the end of 2000, took a break, came back in 00-01, took a break, came back in 03 but refused to buy any expansions (because they were crap). By then my guildmates had all quit, I was still interested in older content, nobody else wanted to do it, so I quit for good. I was a level 51 monk.

Yea, I was just trying to give you a little warning of what to expect. Take it from a guy who played a paladin main with no raid equipment (even though I did raid some for a while I never got anything from it). By the time you get into the 50s if you don't have raid drop equipment when tanking you're going to get slapped silly by Kunark and Velious mobs even in ordinary group areas.

I'm not trying to discourage you I just think you should go into it knowing what to expect. I think this is probably more of a problem for a tank than for anything else because your AC will be so critical. As a DPS melee most people in exp. groups probably wouldn't even notice if your DPS was a little under powered but as a tank if you can't take the abuse from mobs they most definately will notice.

Again, I don't mean to get you down and you'll be fine at least into the 40s. Just keep in mind what I said so it won't take you by suprise later on.

The non-raid gear is there. It's not hugely common, and in some cases requires some risk (say, doing plane of Fear or Hate trash with a single group for armor drops), but it's there. EQ being the flawed game it is, the best stuff is reserved for raid players, but group players have some options available provided they know where to look.

I wouldn't play a hybrid if I *did* intend to a raid, owing to the hybrids' general pointlessness in a typical EQ raid setting. A perfect game, it ain't.

Danth

Sounds fun to me.



And only raiders will need the highest end gear since it is designed for the highest end mobs. I'm happy to have middle-grade gear mostly as long as I can play in small group content. I know there is good stuff out there that isn't completely from raids; I got all the time in the world (as long as the server is around), I'll get my stuff eventually. It's not like the game is going to expand beyond my ability to keep up this time hehehehe. Heck, if you join the right guild they'd want their members geared up decently in order to play and would probably be happy to help you hunt for good stuff so long as you return the favor.



Ah, but if you do go maybe you'd be the only Paladin and then who gets all the Paladin gear that drops? Why you, of course. I will do raids off an on, maybe allow one weekend a month for it and maybe in the summer sometimes when I am not working as much.

I wouldn't say that's true at all. There is a lot of good gear you can get outside of raids in classic. During original classic there's the Ro armor quests, which are certainly doable without a raid and will let you tank any group content in classic decently. In Kunark, the Deepwater armor has great AC and all but legs/BP can be had by a single group. In Velious you can get a full suit of Thurg quest armor with one group by grinding in the Kael arena, which is great armor and will let you tank any regular group content in classic. I'm sure there are plenty more individual pieces you can get in one group out there that will get you sufficient AC to tank group and small raid content through Velious.

Remember - one group content didn't hit that hard in original -> Luclin. Only in PoP did it get to the point where you just straight up couldn't tank anything without tons of AAs and at least Velious raid gear.

Yea, I did the Ro armor quests. That stuff was good in vanilla but was already going obsolete in Kunark. I don't remember the exact numbers and I'm too lazy to look it up but the breastplate for example I know was between 20 and 25 AC, so not too hot after Kunark released.



Can't argue with that and having some of that deepwater armor was what kept me going a little longer. I only got the gloves as a drop but I was able to buy the helm, boots, and I think the upper arms. But without a decent breastplate and leggings my AC was still definately sub-par.




Ok, this is news to me. But it was during Velious that my Guild broke up and disbanded because most people in it wanted to go join larger raiding guilds. For whatever reason I didn't feel like doing the same so I was without a guild. I still had a few close friends in the game including some real life friends but I guess none of us knew you could do that Thurg quest stuff without a raid and I wasn't one to use spoiler sites a lot so , yea, I never knew that. I knew that people raided Kael for that stuff so I guess I just assumed that you could only get it by raiding. Maybe I was wrong about that.

It was around this time that I abandoned my pally and went into my long phase of playing alts untill I quit.



Again, if there were I didn't know about it. Funny thing is I can think of a number of upgrades for spellcasters in the Velious era that don't require a raid but it always seemed to me that for melee/hybrids and especially tanks the equipment upgrades from normal grouping mostly vanished post 50. Honestly, all I was aware of for my pally were those few pieces of deepwater armor and the gloves from the rygor fort and that was it.



I don't know much about the post-PoP high level game because by then I was spending all my time playing alts. I did get my mage up to 56 or so but I think that was pre-PoP and other than that I usually played up to the 40s and then started a new guy untill I finally stopped for good.

But I can tell you that with the equipment I had on my pally during velious he wasn't a very good tank. I had the pieces of deepwater I mentioned and the blacksmith gloves from the rygor fort and the rest was Ro armor. I could hold agro insanely well but I couldn't take hits very well. That's not just my opinion it's what healers told me.

But anyway, with this game forever capped at 60 and velious I'm not much concerned about this stuff. I look at this as a way to relive the fun times and play some more alts for however long it lasts. For me the most fun part of the game was the low-mid levels so I'll enjoy that while it lasts. I might take one character up to 60 just to do it but other than that I'll play lower level characters untill the pre-50 population gets too thin to be fun.

Heh, that's funny, because as a Magician I always thought the caster itemization really sucked in Velious. I guess it's just a matter of perspective. I can imagine it was probably more stressful for the melee classes since you were completely dependent on your gear to do your job.

On the Thurg quest armor - it was definitely doable with one group, but it had to be a really good group. A slower was absolutely required, and a good puller helped. Early on people usually did raid the arena to try and get the armor, but it dropped off the regular yard trash, and by the time Luclin was out people started to figure out that you didn't NEED a raid to get it. I don't remember any pickup groups on my server actually farming it, but if you had a group of friends it was certainly obtainable.

Just calculated. Full suit of bronze, minus the cloak, is 66.8. Now add 15-20 for weapons or shield. Wow, not that light.

It seems higher level magic armor is lighter.

Full suit of Deepwater armor (which includes, Legs Arms Helm Chest Gloves Boots) is 45.5. You'd have to account for other items you'd be wearing too, plus your held items.

Don't forget backpacks weigh as well as their contents (which I hope to upgrade to weightless bags at some point).

Didn't realize plate classes were so hard on the weight limit (being a monk all those years spoiled me).

That STR is looking pretty good to me now. Best STR buff is the lvl 60 shaman buff. +67 STR, they have a +100 but only lasts a minute so doesn't really count all that much in my mind.

That means if you got your personal STR to 188 and then got that shaman buff you'd hit the 255 cap. (That was the cap right?).

So a human starting with 105 STR would have to find 83 STR in items to get to 188. Based on my intentions I doubt that I will even find that much so STR will not be a waste for me. As I stated before, I will only raid casually (every other week or so) so I don't expect to have full raid sets. Even with full raid gear it would be tough.

+40 STR for full SHining Armor (velious era). Still have to find 43 more STR. I'm guessing most good weapons would have around 10-15 STR on it, or less if it spread stats on STA HP MANA etc. You have rings (though I'd opt for the 6 ac 66 hp rings), earrings, necklace, mask, cloak, belt. Would be tough to max out STR on a human or even a dwarf imho...Unless you are a really hardcore gamer, then maybe easier.

I think I'm going 105 STR, 80 STA, 80 WIS and never looking back. Based on my play schedule, and my friend's (who will be coming here with me), we will not be getting massively raid-geared or anything. So every little bit will help.

I know this is getting off topic but I wanted to reply one last time to this.



Yes, that's why I was saying I didn't want to play a mellee or hybrid this time around because I don't want to have to worry so much about my equipment. The upgrades for spellcasters I'm thinking of are probably nothing fantastic but at least they are there and not too hard to get. There are some robes in crystal caverns. In ToFS there is that ring that gives int/wis, the sorcerous bowl, the robe from the top floor, and I'm pretty sure there were some other little things but my memory is getting too fuzzy. You might notice a theme here, I spent way too much time in that tower.



Ok, that's good to know and it sort of explains why I didn't do it with my pally. I dropped him before it became common knowledge that you didn't have to have a raid to get that stuff and when I was playing my alts I no longer payed much attention to the ins and outs of EQ and didn't worry much about upgrading because I knew I would drop each alt to start a new one sooner or later. But if this remake ever sees the light of day I'll definately keep this in mind. I'm planning to play a necro this time around for my first character so if I can't get people to go in there with me I'll probably see if I can figure out a way to solo for that stuff ( I assume necro's had thurg armor quests).

So if, later on, any of you guys see a necro hanging out alone in Kael feel free to ask to group. If it's me I know that I'd be glad for company even if I do work out a good method for soloing in there.

Great Calculations. Backpacks weigh 3 per bag, so that would be at least another 21 if you carried 7. That would put you at 66.8+20+21=107 (Ouch). I point this out, because I lived it I put only 5 points into STR when I rolled up. I had a STR of 90 and a STA of 95. It was PAINFUL to go into places like Cazic Thule and not be able to hold more than a few Fine steel weapons before I was "walking" instead of running.

Couple of tricks.

1) Only have one Backpack or Hand made back pack in your inventory. Use Large Sacks instead. They only way 1 instead 3 like the backpacks.

2) When Kunark comes out, save up your money and make the first piece of armor you buy off some heavy raider be the Deepwater Greeves. The greeves have a Click Str buff that stacks with everything you can cast on yourself. It helps A LOT.

Gwain

What would be a decent mana pool at level 60?

With a WIS at 80 at level 60 your mana pool is going to be around 1080 mana. Then add whatever smaller bonus from items. I'm guessing something like 1200ish mana? Is that a good amount for most encounters or will a pally be running oom all the time?

Just my opinion but I don't think you should worry much about your mana pool. I played a half-elf pally (yes, I knew it was the worst race when I picked it) so my wisdom was low compared to most paladins but I never felt like it was a problem.

The spells you use most in groups don't take a lot of mana. Flash of light is cheap. Your stuns don't use a lot. Yaulp is cheap. Root is cheap. The only time you would need a large mana pool is if you find yourself as the main healer for your group and that didn't happen very often for me. Even when it did happen I was able to get the job done.

I also never felt like I had a problem with my mana pool when soloing. I'll qualify all of this by saying that I dropped my pally in the low 50's so I can't say for sure that this holds true at 60.

This is an old myth. Dex does not increase chance to hit, and agility does not increase chance to dodge.

Dex does the following:
- Increases proc rate slightly
- Increases critical hit chance
- Improves certain combat skills, generally for rogues and monks
- Supposedly increases rate of offensive skill gain

Agi does the following:
- Increases raw armor class by something like 0.2 per agi
- Supposedly increases rate of defensive skill gain
- Yields a noticeable AC penalty if agi is below 75

Since paladins cannot crit, are not particularly reliant on proccing weapons and have no kung fu moves, dex helps very little. Agility is likewise virtually worthless for any class unless your race's base agi is under 75 (I think dwarves and erudites).

Any tank should strongly consider an emphasis on stamina. It simply helps the most in the end. Strength will help more early on, but I wouldn't worry unless your strength is under 90ish. I would consider wisdom to be the third stat preference, and second above strength later on. Any points in dex/agi (except to avoid the <75AGI penalty) are as good as wasted.

The half elf plate is kind of growing on me. I like everything but the boots and helmet (which are just okay; Helmet is too much like Batman, the boots don't make much sense with that cuffed boot look even though they are plate, but I like the half elf chainmail helm look so perhaps I could just wear something like that).

So should I make a Half Elf he starts with

Str 80
Sta 75
Agi 90
Dex 85
Wis 65
Int 75
Cha 85

Bonus 20


I'm guessing spend 15 wisdom and 5 stam to get an even 80 str, 80 stam, 80 wis for the best all around character?

He would certainly be a bit more challenging than a Human to start, and probably less common overall. Plus it'd give access to Nature's Defender later on.

As a non-raider, Nature's Defender must be viewed as a huge boon provided you play through the Velious time frame.

Don't put 15 points into Wisdom. You don't need it. 5 is enough, or even zero. This holds true even on the Half-elf. Paladins don't typically need massive mana pools. In most groups*, you're limited by your mana regen, not by the total size of your mana pool.

*An exception to this is in a raid setting where you may be assigned to mana-intensive tasks such as off-healing. Even so, I consider Wisdom for such a purpose better obtained through gear for all but those Paladins who intend to perform background support as a primary function.

Danth

But what would my total mana pool look at level 60 with 65 base WIS (not counting any gear). For WIS scores below 200 the formula was (in 2003)

(WIS + 10)*level/5

At level 60 with 65 base this gives me 900 mana naked. With items I'm guessing I'd have maybe an extra 20-30 WIS from items (maybe more?) plus 100-200 mana pool? So let's estimate that a 60 Paladin with 90 base WIS.

With setup I'd have between 1100 and 1200 mana at 60. Is that enough to use the required spells for holding aggro and filling in some heals and "oh shite" buttons when necessary to help the healer save mana?

Anyone know what the mana regen rate would be on a 60 Paladin?

If so, then I'd just raise my STR and STA with my starting points and ignore WIS.

Well, a superior heal uses what, 250 mana? You be the judge, but in my opinion Wisdom is not a stat a Paladin needs to worry about at creation except in specific cases.

Danth